Thinking about my death and plans for it

[Big Booger]

My mom died a month ago and that nearly destroyed me. Many of you know it, and I thank you for your kind emails and private messages as well as posts on this forum.

I've had a bit of time to think about things and am currently seeking a hefty life insurance policy, health insurance, disability insurance and the like. Before my mom's passing, I never contemplated these things in a very serious manner. Now I am forced to confront it and plan for it in advance.

The reason for this post is rather to debate the following site:

http://www.alcor.org/index.html

When I was younger about 10 years ago I saw a show on Discovery, about cryonics, a sub-system of cryogenics dealing with the preservation of a living yet legally dead human/brain.

There is a lot of technical documentation on that site and I am totally curious about this. They believe that death as it is viewed today can be cured and a human literally brought back to life sometime in the future as soon as technology can improve well enough to attempt it. They discuss nanotechnology and so on and so fourth. I personally am fascinated by this and have been for over 10 years. It is and has been my personal wish to partake in this and see if one day i can be "revived" after my legal death.

There are several myths the company posts on its website. One that strikes me as really interesting:

Myth 2: Cryonics freezes people.

The current technology favored by Alcor is vitrification, not freezing. Vitrification is an ice-free process in which more than 60% of the water inside cells is replaced with protective chemicals. This completely prevents freezing during deep cooling. Instead of freezing, molecules just move slower and slower until all chemistry stops at the glass transition temperature (approximately -124°C). Unlike freezing, there is no ice formation or ice damage in vitrified tissue. Blood vessels have been reversibly vitrified, and whole kidneys have been recovered and successfully transplanted after cooling to -45°C while protected with vitrification chemicals.

Left: A rabbit kidney suspended in a transparent solution of vitrification chemicals, but without vitrification solution inside it, is frozen solid at a temperature of -140°C.

Right: Another kidney with vitrification solution inside it is preserved without freezing at the same temperature of -140°C.
http://www.alcor.org/images/kidney.jpg


Since this is a tech site, I was wondering if you think and are curious about this as well? have any of you thought about this? Did you know it existed before reading this post? Are any of you going to do this?

I know some of you are religious and would view this as unnatural or even borderline satanical. I can and do understand this.. I myself have raised some internal ethical concerns on this technology and what it would mean to me as a human.

About the Alcor process.. they do not preserve dead people.. What do they do then?

Lets say you die.. it takes a period for your body to die.. it is a process and really can take hours to fully die. Your brain can survive while your body is dead for up to five minutes.

Alcor step in after you have been officially considered dead (your heart stops) and put you on a life support machine. They then transport you to their facilities and cool you down, and do it slowly. And they don't freeze you like an ice cube. Instead they inject a fluid that protects the cells and tissues of your body and then cool your body parts to a very cold temperature (look at the kidneys above).

I think vitrification is a key to the success of them actually being able to bring you back. I am totally keen on this and while it may be wishful thinking, I have a hunch one day some years from now, what they are aiming for can be done.

I just wonder what you think about the technological side of it.. does it seem too far-fetched? Could you see this working? Do you know anyone who is doing this? I am curious and am seriously going to try to do this.

The down sides that I see are basically I waste some insurance money on a process that has not been confirmed to work. Their site lists some concerns as well about fracturing of cells. Basically it's like ice cubes that crack after they've been reduced to a temperature of -196C..

As for specifics regarding

Procedures:

http://www.alcor.org/procedures.html

Costs:

http://www.alcor.org/BecomeMember/scheduleA.html


It is expensive, but for what they are attempting to do I think it is worth it. They offer two options, head only or full body preservation. I personally prefer the full body option.

Well now you know my plan for life after death. My wife thinks I am nutts, and maybe she is right.. but if the possibility exists, I want to seize it.

[Conan]

I think I saw a movie about with this concept before, can't remember the title though.

[Mousesk]

They had something like this in Demolition Man (Sylvester Stalone), Forever Young (Mel Gibson), and Vanilla Sky (Tom Cruise). Was it one of those, Conan?

I remember hearing about this when I was a kid and thinking how cool it would be to be frozen then revived a 100 years from now, just so I could see what the future turns out like. I'm a big technology guy (just like everyone here is, I'm sure) so to see 100 years or even 50 years into the future would be a real treat. I personally wouldn't do it though. All the people you know would be dead if they didn't come up with a way to revive you for a 100 years. And I kind of think this would be wishful thinking, hoping that you can live forever. I don't think any less of people that want to do it though. Everyone has different opinions and views on everything. Congrats BB, I hope everything goes how you hope!

[Big Booger]

Mousesk, I have thought about the family thing. And by the time I die (if I am old) perhaps most of my family will already be dead anyway.

And if my children survive me (if I have them) then I have great grandchildren possibly to look forward to.. or great great great... you get the hint.

And if it takes say 300 years, I've even contemplated that English may not be spoken, or societal rules changing.. country control etc...

I am keen on this for more than a few reasons. I too want to see the future. I am interested in technology. I want to go into space (maybe by then we'll have an interplanetary vehicle).. who knows. I want to experience death and be able to tell others about it. The list goes on and on.

I am saddened that my wife has no interest in this at all. She and I have different concepts and I respect that.. but it will be sad to not have her around if indeed I can return from death.

[FastGame]

IMO once I die thats it, no need to be brought back to life for me.

That would be ok for someone who died at a young age, for someone older why ?

I do understand why you think of this, your young and so was your mother so it makes sense for the thoughts and in your case it would be a nice thing if it works.

Lets say this would work some day.....what if you came back to life only to find out no one you've ever known chose to same thing ? would you want to be in a world without known acquaintances or relatives ? could you handle learning a new world and juggle the wonderment of what happened to everyone before you ?

For the young it would be nice to have a second chance to enjoy a life you never knew, for the old it would only be an exercise in Vanity.

[Big Booger]

I've contemplated the loneliness factor. I'm pretty much in that boat now. Apart from my wife I have no one else in Japan. Sure I have family across the globe, but for everyday life, I have no one.

As for age, even if I do become old, by the time the technology comes around to bring you back, you have to consider how far it will come...

Nanotechnology, rejuvenation therapy, tissue regeneration, genetic recompilation, and so on could be possible.

That said, I could literally be repaired back to OEM specs.. to the fit and fiddle youthful person I once was... much like restoring a classic car today. New parts/organs, new paint/skin regeneration, etc...

Even if I was to remain old, let's say technology advanced far enough to fix my ailments, repair my body to a useable state, and make me a productive human again. That sounds fine to me.

I will be lonely, but I will have some much to take in and of course would seek counseling and so on.

I'd just worry about setting up my life and getting started again. It's something to definitely consider about this.

I compare this to being an orphan with no family. The only difference is you have a choice in this and they didn't. I'd be an old orphan. I can see the struggle in that. And I believe as a human I could adapt.

[petard]

I think I saw a movie about with this concept before, can't remember the title though.


Soylent Green?

[phishhead]

I'm with you Fastgame. when my time comes I'm checking out and thats that...I've told the ex-wife, my mom and the kids that when I die I want to be creamated without a religious funeral and have my ashes released in the ocean. I want people to celebrate my life that I had and not my death. Way I look at it...its just another chapter in your life.
And boogs I know what you mean about when a family member dies it makes you think. When I lost my older brother my mom started a life insurance for me and my brother and I also took one out from my work for another 50grand. I know it the bigger part of things 50g's isnt much but I hope it can take care of my funeral and debt that accumelated

[rik]

True BB you are a long way away and it can cause depression and loneliness, but don't ever think you have no one. We are always here. I know it isn't the same but I'm sure we would all do anything that we can to help.

[FastGame]

What does the future hold ? what if the future is a world of mutants ? what if the "cryonics" were nothing more than genetic slaves used to undo the wrongs of mans violent past, breeders for the rich mutants who long for the day of pre-atomic existence ?

My Great Grandmother was real old when she died. I remember right before she died she told me "its time to go, Ive seen it all" maybe she was right ?

She went from covered wagons to 427 corvettes, man reaching the top of Mt Everest to landing on the moon. She went from pencil & paper to adding machines, calculators and computers. Silent movies to Star Wars, checkers to video games...

When she was a young girl she worried about Apache Indians & Geronimo raiding town, when she was an old woman she worried about young soldiers in Vietnam.

What does the future hold ? Utopia or Hell ?

It would be real nice to awaken to Utopia, but what if a Hitler beats you to the punch ?

I do know for sure if my Great Grandmother could be brought back today she wouldn't be happy with the changes in just a few short years.....how about a 100 more years, 200 ? would Christmas be illegal and replaced with National celebration of Roe vs Wade ? or would everything be the same except for faster computers & war on Mars ?

Flip a coin, would you awaken to your ideals, your Utopia or would you awaken to some other persons ideals, your hell ?

[tarun]

I've contemplated the loneliness factor. I'm pretty much in that boat now. Apart from my wife I have no one else in Japan. Sure I have family across the globe, but for everyday life, I have no one.

As for age, even if I do become old, by the time the technology comes around to bring you back, you have to consider how far it will come...

Nanotechnology, rejuvenation therapy, tissue regeneration, genetic recompilation, and so on could be possible.

That said, I could literally be repaired back to OEM specs.. to the fit and fiddle youthful person I once was... much like restoring a classic car today. New parts/organs, new paint/skin regeneration, etc...

Even if I was to remain old, let's say technology advanced far enough to fix my ailments, repair my body to a useable state, and make me a productive human again. That sounds fine to me.

I will be lonely, but I will have some much to take in and of course would seek counseling and so on.

I'd just worry about setting up my life and getting started again. It's something to definitely consider about this.

I compare this to being an orphan with no family. The only difference is you have a choice in this and they didn't. I'd be an old orphan. I can see the struggle in that. And I believe as a human I could adapt.

BB, you seem like a nice person, and I am sure that your lonliness is only because of recent events. Like the others have said, hope you know that your friends at TZ care... don't give up your happiness...

About the cryogenics - even if they froze your body and your brain, would that preserve your memories? And wouldnt your cells be just as old, or would they replace everything except your brain like u said?
It seems very interesting from a science point of view, but in the far-far future, when this techonlogy begins to work, where do we draw the line with reviving people?
Already synthetic biology (http://rohit.bizhat.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=9) (Fabrication and creation of DNA material) has taken its baby steps and Gene therapy and gene modifying has bee studied. Plastic surgery almost seems outdated... Completely fascinating, yet scary from an evolutionary point of view....

[FastGame]

About the cryogenics - even if they froze your body and your brain, would that preserve your memories?
Thats really good tarun, you have a sharp mind ;)

[tarun]

Thats really good tarun, you have a sharp mind ;)

Coming from FG......gee....thanks.

I was wondering, because the memories could be electrochemical impulses and not "hardware"...
Sure the DNA could be replicated and stem cell tech. would be used if new organs were needed and Omega 3 could boost "nervous system impulse transmission", but could memories be preserved?
If not, well then you arent 'you' and its almost like rebirth (karma, etc).... and then there is no personal gain.
:grab: ...:arrow:......50 yrs........:arrow:.......:sunny:

[MSNwar]

Go for it Boogz.

What would it hurt?

Just do NOT go prematurely!

Money? Its only money man and its your money. Now, if you think you would leave your wife behind without proper means to take care of herself then don;t do it. She deserves better than that ;)

Live long and prosper ol buddy.

[Big Booger]

Well I am looking at getting over a half million dollars in life insurance. Or maybe slightly more. I want to cover all the bases with my wife first, and then have resources left to have this procedure done.

I was just curious about the tech of it all. I mean it seems credible. As for the preservation of memories, I say it is possible though no doubt some memory might be effected.

Think of this:

People have been legally dead for hours, and they are revived. Did they lose their memory? No. I believe in all honesty it would be similar. The brain is like a giant hard disk, that if caught before brain death occurs can be stored and later on in life brought back. It's just a theory because we cannot prove it can actually happen.

In my thinking it is better to try and fail, than not try at all.

[MSNwar]

Tech wise - who knows since as you said - no proof. Personally, I would look for a backup ;)

Go for it. You can start a TZ 3000 :)

[rohitk89]

coincidentally i have thought abt this...i saw a programme on discovery a long time back and remember begging my mother to save up for this...

given the chance, id go all out for it...i want to stay with my family for as long as possible.

About the cryogenics - even if they froze your body and your brain, would that preserve your memories?
perhaps if they kept every part of ur body, and the brain in particular, intact and prevent ANY form of decay of the preserved 'living' cells..then i guess there shudn't be any memory loss (cause memory is essentially stored in the brain cells). though one still cant be sure until some1 actually tries this stuff...

[tarun]

Well I am looking at getting over a half million dollars in life insurance. Or maybe slightly more. I want to cover all the bases with my wife first, and then have resources left to have this procedure done.

I was just curious about the tech of it all. I mean it seems credible. As for the preservation of memories, I say it is possible though no doubt some memory might be effected.

Think of this:

People have been legally dead for hours, and they are revived. Did they lose their memory? No. I believe in all honesty it would be similar. The brain is like a giant hard disk, that if caught before brain death occurs can be stored and later on in life brought back. It's just a theory because we cannot prove it can actually happen.

In my thinking it is better to try and fail, than not try at all.

Apart from the money aspect, maybe you could donate your body to science if possible.
Your theory in memory sounds plausible enough... I think I'll try to read up on this.

[hotmale]

I absolutely have faith in this theory, BB. I'm sure a brain is a kind of hard drive; I don't really believe in souls or spirits. IMO, when people die they cease to exist. Memory, emotions... are all kept in the brain.

A second life and a day of judgement (that most religions claim) sound like the right thing. Everyone who was oppressed in this life would be paid back and everyone would get even. But, since when has this been a perfect world; it's just a big screw-up.

Now if it was my decision, I would definitely go for this cryonics preservation thing. I'm certain it is doable. Who knows what the world will be like in a few decades (or even a couple years) from now? Although it can be creepy, I'd love to see what it would be like in the future (no matter the consequences).

[lynchknot]

Maybe I will be "frozen" in a chunk of amber. I don't like cold too much. Perhaps use some of my body parts as knobs or dials or something.

[MSNwar]

Maybe I will be "frozen" in a chunk of amber. I don't like cold too much. Perhaps use some of my body parts as knobs or dials or something.

LMAO, too good LK :p

[joshsiao]

Hmm... This comes to a real know fact. When you are young, you ask: What is death? then as a teenager, you say: I will never die! Then your twenties, you say: It won't happen to me. Then as you get older you become more afraid and fear death. Until in very old age if unluckly (touchwood) you are stricken with illness eg cancer which is so darn torturing that you say: I wish I was already dead.

Coming to the topic on cryo, the first time I had ever seen anything to do with cryo was during a science display, where the guy doing it was displaying the all amazing liquid nitrogen. Frozen tennis balls, golf balls, leaves, metal bars all shatter into bits. Then he related the story of Walt Disney wanting to cryo himself in Liquid Nitrogen. So he took a standard chicken frank as an example then he bathed the sausage in container for a while then he took a pair of tongs and lifted the sauage out of the container and said: What if the people transporting his bod were to drop it? Then he released it onto the floor... Smash... I cannot imagine the bloody body bits of a person all over the floor when thawed.

[Big Booger]

Joshsiao,
You definitely have something there. That was what I was talking about in the direction of fracturing. After you cool something so cold, it does become fragile.

Considering technology today, you'd probably not bring someone back in the next 10-20 years.. but how about 70, 100, 150 years??? Who knows how far technology will advance. And advance it will. I am just wondering how plausible this is.

[MSNwar]

Oh, I forgot to ask last time, Boogz, can I have your laptop when your gone? :)

[joshsiao]

Joshsiao,
You definitely have something there. That was what I was talking about in the direction of fracturing. After you cool something so cold, it does become fragile.

Considering technology today, you'd probably not bring someone back in the next 10-20 years.. but how about 70, 100, 150 years??? Who knows how far technology will advance. And advance it will. I am just wondering how plausible this is.

Hmm, I think since that 1st impression, I am not really keen on cryo tech. Obviously there will be trends of technology but becasue we are living in this time, we will always underestimate the advancement of techonology. Humans have overcomed many things once thought impossible. What we think of impossible may just be possible in the future.

But the thing about freezing cells with liquid nitrogen is that cells are completely destroyed by ice. Cells contain water and water expands when frozen. This is the problem. And ice is just like glass. It shatters easily. The weird thing is flash freezing. This may be possible. Freeze cells so fast that ice crystals don't form. An example is making ice cream with liquid nitrogen. The liquid nitro is mixed directly into the ice cream mixture and stired. The ice cream freezes so fast that it turns out nice and smooth becasue the boiling nitrogen forms bubbles of gas in the ice cream but the main thing is that ice crystals don't form.

[cash_site]

yep joshsiao, the biggest problem with freezing so far is the water molecules in our body freeze too, which expands the water structure and breaks the cell membrane walls and destroy the cell... so if they tried to thaw you out, you'll probably melt to the floor.

They are trying to do research to eliminate this, obviously, they have found some frogs are able to be completely frozen, then thawed and ok, i think they said they have a DNA gene or something other than water in their cells.

[rohitk89]

yep joshsiao, the biggest problem with freezing so far is the water molecules in our body freeze too, which expands the water structure and breaks the cell membrane walls and destroy the cell... so if they tried to thaw you out, you'll probably melt to the floor.

wow i never looked at it that way..i just realized that if we were frozen we'd burst like a pipe in a country with snow (before corrective measures were implemented)...