Heating...

[Fenalaar]

Hmm - A while back ago we had the quarterly power meter reading, and I started to wonder how the heck did I get such high numbers...

I have a two-story apartment. Basement and first floor, with living areas on both stories. (Living area is 103 sq.m., total area 135 sq.m.)

I have a modern wood stove (efficiency 70-80% on the first floor, and I can get all the firewood I want for free (given that I drag it down from the woods myself, transport it to where I live, cut and split it).

However, I don't have a stove in the basement, and that's where the TV room and my home office. So, after some research it turned out the electric heater in my home office is the culprit for the upcoming, big electric utility bill... (Basically it has to heat the whole basement...)

So, now I'm wondering what to do about it.

My brother is arranging a group buy of a heat pump - Hisense inverter heat pump (http://www.hisense.com/en/products/tv_detail.jsp?pcat_id=03&pcat_name=TV&pro_id=03-20041013162051). The heat pump will set me back around $1600, with a payback period of 4-5 years (compared to regular electric heaters). Basically, for each kW of power you put into one of these, you get 3kW or so of heat out of it....

My other option is to get a new wood stove, and put it in the basement. This will set me back around $1300, but I can get all the heat I want for free (except for the work involved and the diesel needed to haul it back home). However, someone needs to feed the stove every other hour or so to keep a comfortable temperature. When you've been away for some hours, it'll take some hours to get a decent temperature again.

The other factor to keep in mind, is that I'm getting the wood from forest owned by my mother. She's 73 years, and could die tomorrow, or live another 30 years. When she's gone, we probably have to sell the property, as nobody would have the time to keep it shipshape and Bristol fashion. At that point, I would have to buy firewood, just like everybody else. This is a little cheaper than electricity, but not much.

So, folks - what would you do ?

Regards

Johan-Kristian

[FastGame]

However, someone needs to feed the stove every other hour or so to keep a comfortable temperature. When you've been away for some hours, it'll take some hours to get a decent temperature again
What kind of stove ? I live in Michigan and its pretty much a clone of Norway are far as landscape (no mountains in Mi.) and weather. I can load my stove before I go to bed and its good till morning, how come yours burns so fast ? lately its been 0 to 19 deg F where I live.

Here's the best thing for you to do....

Get that heat pump system and install it for your whole house, move the wood stove you have up stairs to the basement.

Run the wood stove and the heat will rise through the floors and help heat the house and the heat pump won't run so much ;)

Thats what I do except I have a fuel oil boiler system instead of heat pump, my wood stove in the basement does a good job and the boiler doesn't run much unless we have strong wind & its below 0 F

When you go away and the wood stove runs low the heat pump will kick in till you get back and feed the stove some beaver meal :D

[Fenalaar]

Basically, I was a bit too cheap when I bought the stove. It's very efficient - I have several reccomendations for a new job, manning old Nicks ovens, when I finally bite the dust :). The stove, however, can't be turned down low, so it' too big when the weather's mild... :(
The stove I have is this one
http://www.wiking.com/img/Modeller/SClassic2.jpg

Basically, a modern, cleanburning stove won't last more than 3 hours or so - max. 5 hours, unless it's a model with a heat magazine. In that case, it can retain heat for up to 12 hours after the fire goes out. Stoves like this costs 5 times as much as the one i have, or more... :(

I'm thinking on geting the heat pump and this one
http://www.jotul.no/archive/F602_gall.jpg

Or this one
http://www.jotul.no/archive/F220ny_gall.jpg

Johan-Kristian

[Fenalaar]

Oh - by the way, if I don't get the heatpump, I can go up to this one
http://www.nibe.se/bilder2/nbv/produkter/contura_510_stor.jpg

Looks neat, doesn't it ?

Johan-Kr

[FastGame]

I like the last one, how much heat does it put out ?

If you can get wood free its sure going to help when you put it in the basement.

In Michigan the way to go is pellet/corn stoves, I could get tons of cobb for free :) auto feed, thermostat....ahhh the warmth & ease of old modern life :cool:

[Fenalaar]

The stoves from to to bottom on my two posts above, is as follows:
A Wiking Classic 2 - fixed at 5kW. http://www.wiking.com $630 - what I paid for it a year an a half ago. Prices have gone up since then.

A Jøtul F220. Puts out from 4-9kW. http://www.jotul.com $1100 - on sale.

A Jøtul F602. Puts out from 2.3-8.5kW. $670 - on sale.

The Contura 510 puts out between 3-7kW. http://www.nibe.com/ $1600 on sale.

Installation will set me back around $400, if I want somebody to do it for me.

I have considered pellets stoves for the convenience, but one of those will be around $3200 +installation, and then I have to buy pellets. Actually, burning pellets is 2-3 times more expensive than a heatpump.

Pellets isn't very available here, so that'll be a hassle - Nobody will buy a stove that the can't get fuel for, and nobody will start selling fuel that nobody can burn....

Oh, by the way - electricity is around 8,7 cents/kWh, with my fixed price contract, including all taxes and so on.

Johan-Kr

[Big Booger]

Heatpump all the way... insulate the windows and doors a bit better, make sure you are not losing heat that way. Clean air, no mess, and best of all no cutting or splitting hehehe.

Though nothing can touch the warmth of a woodstove.. I do miss it from time to time.

We used to cut 10-20 ricks of wood a summer and let it set for 4-5 months. Made perfect wood.. but for 3 weeks my old man would put us to work with a splitting maul and ax.. it was hellish work for 10 year olds.. but I later appreciated it at night time when our whole house would be warm and cozy.. and we even cooked a few times a week on the stove... mainly soups and crockpot type dishes.. though once my father broke out a cast iron pan and made cornbread.. it was a trip....

I live in Japan now and I never turn on my heat except in the morning. We have air conditioning units in each room. They are remote controlled. The only one I use is the bedroom unit, and I have it set on a timer to come on 1 hour before I get up so that might room is warm.. if not I can't get out of the bed. Then it shuts off about 10 minutes after I get up. Works out well and saves energy.

Instead, we use thermal blankets and a kotatsu to stay warm. Right now my wife is under the kotatsu:

http://www.amychavez.addr.com/news/kotatsu/kotatsu.jpg

that is what a kotatsu looks like.

It is basically a table with a small energy efficient space heater mounted to the bottom. Over this they put a large futon style blanket and on the floor they put a matching electric blanket.

I can set under that thing and roast in 5 minutes... at the lowest setting. :D I love it.

You can buy one at the site below:
http://www.jlifeinternational.com/furnishings/kotatsu/JLKT-2003.html

They ship world wide. I highly recommend it for a living room. And in many homes in Japan, they cut out a deep hold under the kotatsu and line it with wood. so you can put your legs down in the space and have them kept warm. It's a nifty way to stay warm in the winter here.

Most other Japanese I know use either kerosene or natural gas heaters as well.

[Fenalaar]

Cutting and splitting is easy - I bought myself an electric sircular saw a couple of years ago, and last summer, I got a hydraulic splitter for my birthday - give me tools for birthdays and chrismas, and I'm a happy camper :)

Actually, getting firewood is kinda nice. It's a good way to get rid of stress, and getting out and do something physical for a change is good for me...

I'm wondering if I should get the heatpump now, and put in a stove this summer.... Whenever sales slow down, they seem to run a new sale :)

Johan-Kr

[efc]

I love my heat pump. I have a SEER 14 unit which has proved to be very economical, and it is the most comfortable heat and air conditioning that I have ever had. The temperature never varies more than one degree. It is virtually silent.

I am heating and cooling 2000 sqft with 9 ft ceilings (thermostat set at 74º F). It has been a mild winter but the bill for last month was $208. That includes everything (heat, hot water, lights, and operation of a 450 gal hot tub which keeps a water temperature of 101º F).

[Fenalaar]

I've decided to avoid messing around with a heatpump in the middle of winter and crawling around in the snow to install the outdoor unit, and wait until summer with it.

For now, I've bought this one:
http://www.jotul.no/archive/F220ny_gall.jpg

I want both a heatpump and a stove, since I like the kind of heat a stove gives off, and I have access to all the firewood I can cut - for free. The heatpump is nice for autumn and spring - when you need some heat, but it's too hot to light up the stove. ( Or if I get to lazy to cut wood...:) )

It has been a mild winter but the bill for last month was $208. That includes everything (heat, hot water, lights, and operation of a 450 gal hot tub which keeps a water temperature of 101º F).

$208 wih a heatpump? Man - you're using a lot of power... (Or the power is damn expensive where you live...)

That hot tub is sucking enormous amounts of power - have you considered isolating the tub and putting an isolated lid on it ? ( Or better yet - build a multiprocessor P4 Extreme system - say 10-20 of 'em and put em in the hot tub :) )

Most hot tubs around here are wood fired, and only heated up prior to each use...

Johan-Kr

[zipp51]

I have a pellet stove and I can get 44,000BTU which will heat 2000 sq ft of living space.I use it with oil forced hot water and I am using 3 pallets(1ton) of pellets and 500 gallons of oil per year.Cost has doubled with heating oil so before the increase I luckily purchased the Pellet because I got sick of cutting and splitting wood,not to mention tending the stove.If you can get pellets for $4/bag I would try that solution. :D

[Fenalaar]

That depends on the bag size, zipp ;)

Last time I checked, a pallet of pellets :) (700kg) would cost around $170 plus the work of actually getting it here. The closest dealer is 110km away...

Direct heated pellet stoves (not the hot water ones) is a little cheaper than using electricity, and on par with firewood (if you have to buy the wood).

However, since I can get firewood for free, and nobody sells pellets around here the choice is clear. A pellet stove is kinda nice, since it's so automated, but without pellets... :(

The cheapest heating, unless you can cut and split the firewood yourself, is heatpumps at 1/3 the price of electricity.

Johan-Kr